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Simply_Kenna/cozykitsune [Thread 5]


10412 posts in this topic

Posted

This is not true. Most people just don't know enough about gypsies, Romani, and the country of Bohemia to understand the cultural appropriation. To some it may not be as easily defined as other cultures that they are more familiar with or that have been better documented; for those reasons, it makes the culture harder to conceptualize. However that does not make it any less of a cultural appropriation.

bo·he·mi·an   /bōˈhēmēən/
mid 19th century: from French bohémien ‘Gypsy’ (because Gypsies were thought to come from Bohemia (now part of the Czech Republic), or because they perhaps entered the West through Bohemia).

Roma Women's Clothing
[Roma] Women are interested in fashion that shows their sense of "shame" and their status as guardians of purity for the family. Because of this role, women are expected to cover their legs at least to the mid-calf. Married women traditionally cover their head with a scarf and tie their long hair up or braid it. There is no shame associated with showing a low-cut neckline; in fact, it is rare to see a woman who does not wear low-cut tops. Women may wear modern western clothing when they do not want to be recognized as Roma. Some, for example, wear "Hopi" Indian dress to "pass" as American Indians. Even within these limitations, women have a great deal of leeway to adopt different styles:

Traditional Serbian or Russian Roma-homemade, long, pleated, light chiffon, sari-like skirt; tight lowcut blouse with V-neck showing cleavage; bra that acts as a pocketbook and place for cigarettes; hair put up in a chignon or bun; pocket handkerchief or larger style scarf on the head; flat shoes.

Eastern European Roma contemporary-flowered, bright calf-length skirt; short puffed-sleeved peasant blouse with gold coins around the neck; and scarf on head; barefoot or in flat shoes

Spanish Roma entertainment-flamenco dress that is calf-length; bright polka-dot material; sleeveless low-cut top.

Read more at https://fashion-history.lovetoknow.com/clothing-around-world/roma-gypsy-fashions#qxk0g0QydFavgs5B.99


"Bohemian" was originally a term with pejorative undertones given to Roma gypsies, commonly believed by the French to have originated in Bohemia, in central Europe.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12711181

"Bohemia was an Eastern European nation, the home to my Romany ancestors. It was their home, the safest they ever felt was in Bohemia, but of course, the Czech soldiers took it over. My great grandfather was stabbed in Town Square for being openly Romany, and loudly Bohemian." 
http://affinitymagazine.us/2017/02/03/an-open-letter-to-the-unbeknownst-racist/

"During the Holocaust, Romani people were among the target groups sought out by Nazis, and are to this day, still persecuted by many. To turn the lifestyles and histories of women of color into the latest fad is something that has seeped into our culture, but it is inexcusable to simply forget both the oppression that these women have faced and the pride they take in reclaiming their roots.Unfortunately, white people are not the only culprits when it comes to cultural appropriation. People of color do appropriate the cultures of other people of color, and that doesn’t make it any more acceptable than if a white person were to do so." 
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/appropriate-or-appropriative

 

 

Thank you for this post. I learn something new today. It would be very beneficial if you could copy-paste everything as a comment under Kenna's video. As @FrenchLavender said, if you look hard enough, anything is cultural appropriation. We live in an era of multi-culturalism. With the internet and social media, many elements of cultures may be seen and passed around without proper background information. For example, a person who has never been exposed to Chinese culture decided to purchase and wear a cheongsam with the mere thought of thinking it is beautiful. Most people may view it as a mere fashion statement. But if a Chinese says it is cultural appropriation, the situation will be viewed differently then.  

This is a very delicate situation so giving Kenna the benefit of the doubt that she may not know about the origins of bohemian, educate her on it with your post. If she responded inappropriately, then we can talk about that.  

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Posted

if you look hard enough, anything is cultural appropriation 

 

i agree!! That can turn into a witch hunt and has no sense. If you follow that logic then it's offensive to wear jeans either, considering  the fact that they were once worn by poor working-class people. 

i don't think it's wrong to use a word 'boho' or 'bohemian'. It's has changed its meaning so much that actually 'bohème' in french is more 'an artist' than 'someone from Bohemia'. There are many more ways to show respect to the romani culture than not using this word. In my country it's totally ok to use a word 'gypsy' and it's not considered pejorative, but on the other hand we have bunch of social laws which help to protect the romani heritage, facilitate their education etc. I think it's more important really doing something for the oppressed culture than just witch-hunting those who happen to use 'the wrong word'. I doubt that the people who so persecute others because of this trifle even care at all about all those cultures as fiercely as they persecute others for not being politically correct. 

i know that forum is about kenna but that was something that really bothered me for a long time.

 

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Posted

I'm looking forward for it to go down to 700,000, but I think it would take too long.

It's still going down...

dOlCzs4.jpg

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Posted

This is not true. Most people just don't know enough about gypsies, Romani, and the country of Bohemia to understand the cultural appropriation. To some it may not be as easily defined as other cultures that they are more familiar with or that have been better documented; for those reasons, it makes the culture harder to conceptualize. However that does not make it any less of a cultural appropriation.

bo·he·mi·an   /bōˈhēmēən/
mid 19th century: from French bohémien ‘Gypsy’ (because Gypsies were thought to come from Bohemia (now part of the Czech Republic), or because they perhaps entered the West through Bohemia).

Roma Women's Clothing
[Roma] Women are interested in fashion that shows their sense of "shame" and their status as guardians of purity for the family. Because of this role, women are expected to cover their legs at least to the mid-calf. Married women traditionally cover their head with a scarf and tie their long hair up or braid it. There is no shame associated with showing a low-cut neckline; in fact, it is rare to see a woman who does not wear low-cut tops. Women may wear modern western clothing when they do not want to be recognized as Roma. Some, for example, wear "Hopi" Indian dress to "pass" as American Indians. Even within these limitations, women have a great deal of leeway to adopt different styles:

Traditional Serbian or Russian Roma-homemade, long, pleated, light chiffon, sari-like skirt; tight lowcut blouse with V-neck showing cleavage; bra that acts as a pocketbook and place for cigarettes; hair put up in a chignon or bun; pocket handkerchief or larger style scarf on the head; flat shoes.

Eastern European Roma contemporary-flowered, bright calf-length skirt; short puffed-sleeved peasant blouse with gold coins around the neck; and scarf on head; barefoot or in flat shoes

Spanish Roma entertainment-flamenco dress that is calf-length; bright polka-dot material; sleeveless low-cut top.

Read more at https://fashion-history.lovetoknow.com/clothing-around-world/roma-gypsy-fashions#qxk0g0QydFavgs5B.99


"Bohemian" was originally a term with pejorative undertones given to Roma gypsies, commonly believed by the French to have originated in Bohemia, in central Europe.
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-12711181

"Bohemia was an Eastern European nation, the home to my Romany ancestors. It was their home, the safest they ever felt was in Bohemia, but of course, the Czech soldiers took it over. My great grandfather was stabbed in Town Square for being openly Romany, and loudly Bohemian." 
http://affinitymagazine.us/2017/02/03/an-open-letter-to-the-unbeknownst-racist/

"During the Holocaust, Romani people were among the target groups sought out by Nazis, and are to this day, still persecuted by many. To turn the lifestyles and histories of women of color into the latest fad is something that has seeped into our culture, but it is inexcusable to simply forget both the oppression that these women have faced and the pride they take in reclaiming their roots.Unfortunately, white people are not the only culprits when it comes to cultural appropriation. People of color do appropriate the cultures of other people of color, and that doesn’t make it any more acceptable than if a white person were to do so." 
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/appropriate-or-appropriative

 

 

Thank you so much for this !

 

In European culture, Bohemians are a little more well-known so I understand that other parts of the world don't know about that.

About Kenna, maybe she indeed doesn't know the meaning of this but it's what cultural appropriation is all about. Stealing from culture and people that are oppressed with no benefits for them, you see ? If you buy a traditional kimono in a shop in Kyoto, it benefits to Japanese culture and traditions. If you buy a cheap dress from a random shop and mimic a style without learning anything from this style and its origins, it's appropriation. As I said, I don't want to get political. But it's weird how everyone said it was cultural appropriation when it concerned Japanese people and Buddhism but when it comes to Bohemians, no one seems to see the problem.

I hope everyone can understand the difference and what is the problem here.

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 I still don't get what is Kenna doing that is cultural appropriation? 

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Posted (edited)

 I still don't get what is Kenna doing that is cultural appropriation? 

 

This fight will probably go on for several pages, so you'll have pleeeenty of time to mull over what she's doing. 

Essentially, Kenna is taking up a style ("boho chic") which borrows many elements from "bohemian" fashions that originated in Eastern Europe and the surrounding areas with the Romani people (a historically, and currently, oppressed group), among other groups. It was picked up by contemporaries in the 19th century, but popularized by nomadic hippies in the 1960s.

Whether you consider this appropriate really comes down to how removed something has to be from a culture to consider it appropriation (hippies appropriated "bohemian," hence it's pretty far removed from the source culture--and Kenna's idea of boho is mostly sundresses and low-cut, loose shirts, so not exactly an exact copy), and if the use of elements from a style is really appropriation if those items themselves are not significant in the forms of oppression or not culturally sacred (e.g. black people get directly attacked for their hair, or a sacred symbol only allowed to be worn by special people). Cultural appropriation itself is a pretty sticky subject, since there's no consensus on who can and cannot participate, how much, etc.

 

Even the article the main instigator of the conversation quoted mentioned Roma women wear Hopi dresses frequently. Appropriation is not delegated to one type of person.

It's not cut-and-dry, and as someone else mentioned, literally all aspects of anyone's culture have been somehow, at some time, borrowed or been modified by an outside group. You can say anything's appropriation with enough research.

 

Honestly, I wish people would take this to the DMs. No use fighting over this in a public forum when you've released enough information to let people form their own opinions. 

Edited by darlin
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Posted

Any speculation on what tomorrows video so gonna be? If she actually uploads tomorrow? 

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You can tell how Kenna has been boring by the way this topic derails into an ocean of nitpicking lol. We are struggling to find something to talk about.

Even if the video was kinda better than the other ones, Boho guide in 2019? Not saying that she has to go with the flow and become an instagram baddie, I actually praise her to (somewhat) be true to herself (or one of her versions lol), but this is not what the majority of people want to watch. I know that it sucks, but when you are creating content, there’s always this issue between what you want to do and what people want to see. And in the end Youtube is all about numbers. If she wants to make a career out of YT, she has to stay up to date. Don’t change yourself to fit the current fashion, but give us your unique approach of a relevant topic/interest. It’s not that difficult for her, since all her fans are begging for japanese content. But she prefers to keep doing her aesthetic videos. Of course, it’s her choice and it’s fair, but don’t expect to make money and pretend it’s your only source of income 

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Posted (edited)

Thank you so much for this !

 

In European culture, Bohemians are a little more well-known so I understand that other parts of the world don't know about that.

About Kenna, maybe she indeed doesn't know the meaning of this but it's what cultural appropriation is all about. Stealing from culture and people that are oppressed with no benefits for them, you see ? If you buy a traditional kimono in a shop in Kyoto, it benefits to Japanese culture and traditions. If you buy a cheap dress from a random shop and mimic a style without learning anything from this style and its origins, it's appropriation. As I said, I don't want to get political. But it's weird how everyone said it was cultural appropriation when it concerned Japanese people and Buddhism but when it comes to Bohemians, no one seems to see the problem.

I hope everyone can understand the difference and what is the problem here.

 

just asking bc i really don't know: what about traditional german atire? the dirndl and lederhosen? i mean every year during Oktoberfest time, foreigners, no matter what race or nationality come to Germany munich and some are wearing the traditional german atire just to get drunk, but nobody cares about that or calls it cultural appropriation. is there a difference to the japanese or other cultural appropriation? after all it's the same situation, bc not everyone is buying a dirndl from a traditional german attire shop, but sometimes cheap on amazon or so.

Edited by katdr
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I just started studying and there is a girl in my class that looks EXACTLY like Kenna before she adds the snow filters and I had to do a double take. Obviously its not her (I'm in Australia) but its crazy how similar they look. I wish Kenna would embrace her natural face because she could be so pretty. 

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Posted (edited)

The asmr video really just tanked her views. Her latest one is not even past the asmr when it's way better than it. Huh.

Edited by parasitic
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thank u everyone that answered my questions! 

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Notice how she’s been so inactive lately that we’ve resorted to nitpicking to keep this thread alive

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